origins of anime

[Kendeathwalker]

Im writing my english 200 paper on a similar topic, its actually about the american infatuation with anime, and the codependance of america and japan, etc. pokemon and shit like that, Im not a big anime fan myself but I have an open mind, and I can recognize skill when i see it, such as artgerm, utikiwhatevr his name.

Ive got this little theory that anime was originally just a popular stylization of the figure in japan, that was picked up by cartoonists and simplified some, then once it reached america, artists here just trying to jump on the money maker bandwagon completely butchered it. I am not claiming this is correct its just my reflection on it, id like to hear some educated responses from people here.

[Sharingan]

Astroboy by Tezuka was the first true "Anime." He started it all. If you want further back than that, i have no clue, but i do hate all those "How to draw Manga" books by amateur artists. It's really annoying how they stereo type and generalize things. And the professional american (Hart) artists who have published manga books for money...ugh..i want to say, "Stick to your own goddamn type of art and don't tell other ppl how to draw in a style you know nothing about."

[emmapeel]

i think anime/manga style has it's origins in the traditional "eastern" art forms. look at the basic simplicity of Japanese paintings and you see the beginnings of anime. unlike most western art that moved towards realism, eastern art (due to it's strong links to tradition) seems to have remained in a very defined style that (i think) directly influenced the birth of anime/manga.

and since there is (technically) no real manga style i think you have to look further than Tezuka's work to be able to say "this was the birth of anime/manga." he might have been the origin of "popular manga style" but since manga is actually just "comics" then any style of comic-drawing can be considered manga. and if you look at the classic manga (Blade of the Immortal, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, etc.) you'll see that while there are similarities (just as there are similarities between American artists) there are also a lot of differences.

just my two cents. i haven't really explored this, just been making personal observations. (i've also noticed that there are more similarities between French comic art and Japanese comic art than say French and American or Japanese and American.)

e.p.

[Kendeathwalker]

another question I have is, I dont understand what made anime so popular with american kids, the saturday morning crowd. I can see how japanese kids would enjoy anime because they would have an affinity for it, tradition and such. but what made dragonball z more appealing to a kid than heman or the lone ranger.

[droopy]

Maybe couse they were different then what the kids are used to.

[Shogmaster]

Anime started in World War 2 when Japanese animators copied Disney and other American animation styles to make war propaganda films aimed at the west. After the war, adaptation of the American animation style became more stylized by the likes of Tezuka (true godfather of Manga and Anime) and became the standard of the fledging Japanese animation industry.

[tzuge]

Yeah, it definitely took inspiration from western animation like Felix the Cat, etc. As for Anime's popularity in the West...my take on it is that it's being driven from the top, by tv networks, etc.. They realized that licensing japanese cartoons is way easier than actually bothering to produce something in the US. I watched saturday morning cartoons when networks actually showed american produced stuff. Cartoons like batman, spiderman, xmen etc. were all pretty good.

[Wyrmslayer]

Well to me, good animes are usually more oriented towards an older audience, and more violent.

If you watch stuff like Spider Man and XMen (Both good) usually, people dont die, even with Wolverine and his adamantium claws, he never kills anyone.

And that is the big difference in anime to western comics/cartoons in my opinion.

And also, some american companies are trying to simulate anime styles, like if you have ever seen the New Xmen series, it has many anime influences it seems.

[Noadi]

Actually the influence of anime on american animation goes a little further back than the late 90s when it started getting popular. Thundercats was american made but strongly influenced by anime and that was way back in the 80s.

About the art though, traditional japanese art is definitely nothing like anime. I'm sure influence on anime from japanese culture is extremely strong but I think the art influence is a lot less than you would expect. Anime to me far more resembles american animation than it does Ukiyo-e or any of the other forms of japanese art that I'm familiar with.

[KuranosukeOishi]

The origins of manga can be traced back to the early twelfth century, during the later part of the Heian Period, with emaki which roughly translates as "narrative picture scrolls".

As an interesting note, the Ukiyo-e artist Katsusika Hokusai coined the term mangwa.

So yes, I think traditional Japanese art did indeed influence manga and anime.

This link (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/aug01/ao_0801_3.shtml) has a more detailed look at the origins of Japanese sequential art.

[Shou]

but what made dragonball z more appealing to a kid than heman or the lone ranger
heman is a 70's cartoon, and when heman was out it was more popular than voltron or any other anime of that era. Heman cant survive today because the show was ridiculously lame and arrogant, almost as corny as super friends. People want more serious shows now, so voltron today would be more popular than heman since anime carries more maturity. Even shows like pokemon and sailor moon try to evoke emotion in the viewer every once in awhile and try to make the characters less 1dimensional, american stuff usually trys to steer clear of that at all costs since they think kids hate to think (xmen and batman were successful because they tried to go for emotional moments and character development, but no one really caught on to why they were a success). Theres also many anime shows made for adults, it gives people in america a chance at watching something animated that isnt just about farting and puke, they are popular with kids too since kids do like serious things as well as farts and puke which the adults here seem to be oblivious to.

Combine characters that arent just 1 dimensional super heros and the much supperior artwork and you have a win/win situation. We still dont know the full potentional of anime on american kids though since its fighting a battle of xenophobia. Innocent shows get hacked and slashed because of references to japan, emotional moments get turned into something they arent and characters completely change. I remember a show on Fox Family where they changed the families location to america and whenever there was japanese writing on screen they actually said "its in secret code again!", I think it was Tokyo Pig or some show like that. Escaflowne could have been very popular but the editors did such a number on it that it made as much sense as looney tunes.

[Hiltz]

He-Man... the guy's name was HE-MAN!

I mean put some more creativity into the name lol.
I was so exicted when the new 2000 He-man animated series came on since it brought back so many memories and all the characters looked about 100x better than their original animated selfs.

Censorship & editing kill animated series! Stop it all! :crying:

Anime.. it came from Uranus.

Astroboy... the new animated one didn't do so well here in the States. I couldn't even take Astro seriously when he is a robot with no clothes on like a walking super baby or something hehe. Sorry Astro, its time to change ur diaper.

[Snowfox]

I used Astroboy as my character in Quake II.

[Fiend]

Off Topic, but a note on all these "How to draw manga" crap books.

Ever noticed that almost all of them are written and drawn by American artists who's artstyle doesn't even slightly resemble a form of manga AT ALL? Gah, I hate that.

Anyway...

[Bomu]

Im writing my english 200 paper on a similar topic, its actually about the american infatuation with anime, and the codependance of america and japan, etc. pokemon and shit like that, Im not a big anime fan myself but I have an open mind, and I can recognize skill when i see it, such as artgerm, utikiwhatevr his name.

Ive got this little theory that anime was originally just a popular stylization of the figure in japan, that was picked up by cartoonists and simplified some, then once it reached america, artists here just trying to jump on the money maker bandwagon completely butchered it. I am not claiming this is correct its just my reflection on it, id like to hear some educated responses from people here.

- I find this http://stuff.mit.edu/people/rei/Expl.html a useful resource when explaining manga and anime as it shares many of my views. Might be of some help.

Off Topic, but a note on all these "How to draw manga" crap books.

Ever noticed that almost all of them are written and drawn by American artists who's artstyle doesn't even slightly resemble a form of manga AT ALL? Gah, I hate that.

Anyway...

Depends what you define as manga. For example, people in this thread are mentioning, Tezuka's Astro boy (the first 'true Manga' to be created), which drew strong influences from western comics. Compared to a more modern typical anime/ manga style, Chirstopher Heart's books share about as much style resemblance as a japanese written "how to draw Astro Boy" book.

[Robosockmonkey]

Anime started in World War 2 when Japanese animators copied Disney and other American animation styles to make war propaganda films aimed at the west. After the war, adaptation of the American animation style became more stylized by the likes of Tezuka (true godfather of Manga and Anime) and became the standard of the fledging Japanese animation industry.

Disney, that is the truth! there are actually many anime characters from early Japanese cartoons that look extreemly similar to many famous Disney characters (the original Astroboy looks a lot like Mickey Mouse). Although I wasn't sure about the whole propaganda thing (I'll have to look into it).

I have actually done a lot of research on traditional Japanese art, such as Wood block prints in the Yukio-E period(can't remember the spelling right now), and you can't really say that art forms such as that is the roots of anime. While it may be in influence, it is like saying that American cartoons spawned from the Renaissance (or something like that anyways)

[Non Existent IBW]

Anime was originally mimicing disney cartoons after WWII when japan was rebuilding the country and adapting to new ways of life. What set them apart later on was cell shading. Cell shading was not used as much in america than it was in japan. Anime also uses lesser frame rates than western animation. The big eyes thing has its roots in exageration and also, not all main characters are necesarily, tall and such, some are small and short, so with that, big eyes and sometimes big heads are used.

The use of less frames forced animators in japan to compensate by using exagerated proportions simply because they did not have enough frames to fully show a movement in comparison to american animation.

Later on, some animes developed from mangas, however manga is a big market on its own and existed far long before anime even came about. Manga has its roots in woodblock paintings dating to the 1600's and the works of Hokusai, who became famous in Europe and especially France, and even now many anime like SainT Seiya and Lupin (manga too) are very popular there. Woodblocks were cometimes comedic one scene panels, which greatly influenced manga. Manga is meant to be read FAST. REader has to get the point in the panel RIGHT away. That's just the way it is. That is the reason most of it is in black and white, to keep up with the fast production processes.

Anime really blew up here during the 70s-late 80s to early 90s. By the early 90s people had groups devoted to it, and the whole reason it blew up was because, compared to american weekly cartoons, anime was more detailed. Again the use of cell shading and exagerated proportions comes into play. American animation uses more frames than detail, which is the opposite of anime. Frame count is IMPORTANT.
Besides stuff was different in story as well. Mazinger Z was brought over as one of the super robots. Kids ate it up. Gundam didn't make a good crossover to the USA till gundam wing and the very reason THAT sold tons here is because americans were not used to it in general(not the anime crowd who knew about it). IN fact, there are tons of fans here now that still say gundam wing is the best gundam ever, which is far from the truth but that is a whole other story altogether.

The people in the comic business now doing pseudo manga do it because it was most likely their childhood influence, with the advent of photoshop, cell shading becomes readily easy to do, and at the same time fast. It is MUCH harder to make an actual cell by hand than it is in photoshop(up to a day by hand vs 5 minutes in photoshop, trust me I've done both). THe thing is, A LOT OF FANS NOW are drawing anime without LEARNING how to DRAW first., Which is a very fatal mistake. To me, IMHO, there are VERY FEW who are actually able to mesh the anime into comic look well in the USA. A bunch of my peers do it, and even I don't like it. There is only a handful of people I know of that can do it well on my school, and truthfully I don't even know them that well. American corporations caught on to essentially a niche market, anime was NOT this big in the early 90s. It was big, but not barnes n nobles walls of manga big. Here is what is happening. A lot of anime is being brought over. And a lot of manga as well. Most of the manga is still there. I wouldn't say its a hot seller, don't let the huge aisles fool you, what I see is mismarketing. Corporations here made anime a trend to the point where you see gundam birthday hats. At the same time gundam in the USA is virtually DEAD. Bandai USA is stopping the planned Gundam SEED and ZETA product line toys and only a handful made it out. IN Japan Gundam is STILL huge, just as huge as star wars is here. The USA is reaching a point of market saturation and mismarketing. Anime will eventually fade in the USA but not to the point where it is as small as the early 90s market, just a lot smaller than it is now. Kids will move on as more crappy licenses get put out. The USA is marketing some stupid stuff at times that does not sell, not due to popularity but because it sucks. In fact viz comics was only alive because during the late 90s they were one of the main licensees for manga, but now>? Where are they? I can't even remember the last thing they put out aside from animerica. More of the indie stuff is taking over which is good for guys like me, but not necesarily good for the market. It really all depends.

Anime now is mainly known for its dynamics and supposed illusion of detail through cell shading. THe people who do that toally spies cartoon suck. No sense of good movement, only copying style not true roots or fundementals of anime. The market in japan is huge. Especially manga. THey don't have topp 10 they have top 100's-1000's.

We only get a bare minimum of what is out in japan. There are any gundam series and yet we only got 3 serialized on cable here. Sad. Wait 6. Even then. We still haven't seen it all and it was broadcasted at horrible time slots. Anime will be its own undoing here due to mismarketing and bad marketing in general.

And people who did not know who to draw were a big problem for mangaka in japan during the 80s and now as well. "even a monkey can draw manga" is a GREAT satire on the whole industry pol;itics during the 80s in japan and is a truly great read, If you can read it do it. Everything is founded on the basis of being able to draw, no amount of CG can make up for lack of skill. THis is a growing problem even now and it is a very evident factor in pseudo manga artists here in the USA who suck.


Avoid all of christopher hart's asian themed art books. IF you want to see how its done get Masamune Shirow's Intron Depot books. The only good how to draw books are those translated from japanese in the "how to draw manga" series. Avoid Ben Dunn's work as well.

[Hiltz]

I personally think that the problem with most of these "how to draw" books is that as far as someone like Chris Hart goes, he tends to have too many illustrations put in that really don't do anything to help the reading artist with. Some of his art is good but there are some pages that I really feel have a crappy look to them, like he could have made them look much better since he has shown that he is more than capable of drawing good.

There are some books I own by Hart that are good, like his anatomy book which is finally one I can understand compared to real anatomy which just confused the heck out of me lol. I thank him for that book, one of the best ones I own.

Hi Bomu! Nice to see u here. :)

[Non Existent IBW]

Chris Hart is only good at western art. His dynamic comic book how to is well done, but he just cannot do eastern art. His eastern art books are a prime example of someone trying to cash in on the japanese flavor without know why it is done. His is stereotypical anime work. Notice that Pat did pseudo manga and his stuff looks way better even if it isn't as influenced by anime as chris hart's work.

[Vava2109]

thats affermative, i bought a hart how to draw manga book and didnt learn nada . . . tch someof the artists i could easily outdraw heheheh Vava over and out

[Bomu]

I personally think that the problem with most of these "how to draw" books is that as far as someone like Chris Hart goes, he tends to have too many illustrations put in that really don't do anything to help the reading artist with. Some of his art is good but there are some pages that I really feel have a crappy look to them, like he could have made them look much better since he has shown that he is more than capable of drawing good.

There are some books I own by Hart that are good, like his anatomy book which is finally one I can understand compared to real anatomy which just confused the heck out of me lol. I thank him for that book, one of the best ones I own.

Hi Bomu! Nice to see u here. :)

Hi Hiltz :wave:

- Yeah, I've seen some of his book's pages that have really pixelated low quality artwork- How the reproduction quality came out so bad, I don't know, unless he was supplying the publishers with stuff too low-res for print? But as someone who has had dealings with different book publishers, I can say that many of these sorts of books have to be completed within just a few months and with deadlines so tight, sometimes sacrifices have to be made so that the book goes to schedule, no matter the cost!

Chris Hart is only good at western art. His dynamic comic book how to is well done, but he just cannot do eastern art. His eastern art books are a prime example of someone trying to cash in on the Japanese flavor without know why it is done. His is stereotypical anime work. Notice that Pat did pseudo manga and his stuff looks way better even if it isn't as influenced by anime as chris hart's work.

- I agree he's a good enough western artist, but as far as I know, Chris doesn't come from a manga-lovin' background and was most likely asked by the publishers to try a series of manga books which ended up selling well due to there not being much on the market (at the time his first manga book was released) and which actually taught techniques instead of mainly just showing examples of finished black and white line art like many of the "How to draw Manga" books. And once Chris had one or two best sellers under his belt, publishers will continue asking him to pump out manga as it's the publishers that want to cash in the manga craze- not the artist. I'm sure Chris would be happier doing his typical western stuff, but a guy's gotta pay the bills!

I've found western How-to-draw-mangas aren't gonna be very helpful to people that already have the basics down but they are generally written a lot better than Japanese books and are more accessible to youngsters through more step-by-step diagrams opposed to Japanese produced material. I'd recommend the Japanese how-to-draw-manga books to either hardcore manga fans that prefer the book's featured art styles or people that are already fairly competent at the basics. I'd also recommend non- manga related books such as "How to draw comics the Marvel way" since many of the techniques can be applied to any style :)

[Non Existent IBW]

HOw to draw comics the marvel way is a very good back no matter what style. I recommend that book to ANYONE. Written and illustrated by Lee and john Bushema, both of whom I highly regard. Bushema's work is awesome, as a matter of fact I am a big fan of 60s-early 80s marvel work.


Ken, another reason why anime is loved so much here is that it comes in 3 flavors.

1-TV series
2-OVA
3-Feature film movie

TV series are like gundam wing, and feature work done pretty fast to meet deadlines on a monthly or weekly schedule. These almost all the time use recycled animation.

OVA are Original Video Animation, and are direct to video anime. TONS more detail and flow mechanics than TV anime, since more time is spent on it, but far fewer episodes than a TV series.

Full feature film is shortest of the 3 altogethere but of the highest quality.

Cartoonish anime people are a result of budget shrinkage. 80s anime pioneered highly realistic anime, but the 90s was a new era. An era of speed and cheapness. It costs FAR MORE to pay for an animator who can animate realistic people simply because they are much harder to draw and take a ton much more time. IT's cheaper and faster to hire someone who does cartoonish stuff.

Wings of Homenaise and Macross Plus has some realistic people. MAcross Plus broke barriers for its high detail and exquisite mecha dogfights in planes as well. Gundam 0083 is aguably one of the best hand drawn mecha anime I have ever seen, and makes gundam wing look like crap.(story AND art wise no matter what the toonami crowd may tell you).

And to be honest, though this has been outdone by sunrise on numerous levels, I love the original gundam, for something that started in 78, it pioneered a big ass money making industry in japan where nearly 30 years later its STILL selling tons.

Damn Bandai America for mismarketing here,.

[Hiltz]

I find it sad that dead lines help ruin what could have been a much better anime series if just more time was allowed.

I'd prefer a great anime that would take a year to make over an somewhat decent anime that only took 5 months to put together but I guess that's just one of the problems with everything from publishing artbooks to producing anime series.

[McClounD]

Yeah you have a point, that can really mess up a good show. One thing though, this is just a kick... but, do you think any really kick ass shows (endings) are sometimes altered "shorter" in order to meet the deadlines? I mean, everyonce in a while you'll come across these awesome anime series and just to be let down by the ending. I don't know if its done purposely to get that effect (emotion) out of you or if it was changed improvised or something. It just leaves alot to disire. Maybe that might be done so that you get into anime/manga a bit more, I really don't know. There are however certain endings that were done they were meant to be done. An example would be some sad anime, which sometimes can "emotionaly" get to you. Also, some video games (Still anime).

[Professor Az]

All I can say is that I was there when Astro Boy debuted in the US. Of course it was in black and white, but then again TVs were all B&W anyhow, so there ya go.

Wow, hiyas Bomu! :)

[Bomu]

I would imagine some series are cut short if funding runs out half way through. Anime studios also only have so much cash the play with and if they get over schedule, I wouldn't be surprised if they made cut backs. Also anime in Japan goes in slots of I think 16 and 32 episodes (correct me if I'm wrong!) so translating a long running manga series into a lot less animated episodes means changing the plots and endings to suit.

Hi Professor Az :wave:

[Dendrobium_Zero]

I would imagine some series are cut short if funding runs out half way through. Anime studios also only have so much cash the play with and if they get over schedule, I wouldn't be surprised if they made cut backs. Also anime in Japan goes in slots of I think 16 and 32 episodes (correct me if I'm wrong!) so translating a long running manga series into a lot less animated episodes means changing the plots and endings to suit.

Hi Professor Az :wave:

I've found that for the most part, anime series are 12, 13, 26, or 52 episodes. 12 or 13, being the length of a season, 26 half a year, and 52, a full year.

[Bomu]

-12s and 26s - that makes more sense!

[dfacto]

then of course there's stuff like Ranma and Naruto that go on forever and ever....

[Dendrobium_Zero]

Well, Ranma ended after like 168 (?) episodes, but then there were also a couple of movies made. I've heard that they ended Inuyasha as well around 160 eps.

[Hiltz]

Isn't the average around 26 episodes?

The series like Inuyasha and DBZ and Naruto just go all out for well over 100 epsiodes.

[Naota]

I thought there were new episodes of Inuyasha. Or maybe adult swim just keeps repeating them and saying NEW EPISODES, when it's just a different season?

[KuranosukeOishi]

12 or 13, being the length of a season, 26 half a year, and 52, a full year.

Actually, 12-13 would be half a season. 24-26 is a full season, and, of course, 48-52 would be two seasons.

[dram]

I think the only good how to draw manga books are the ones on mecha, and even those suck because they only show you how to draw like three things. I love the animation in Gundam, but that kind of mecha style is over obsessed upon. Oops, I guess that's a little off topic.

[Non Existent IBW]

Then you obviously have not read the book. It is a lot more in depth. Good guidance as well. maybe you read Chris Hart's mecha book, which unanimously is known to suck. in terms of gundam what do you expect? It is more than likely the only mecha kids here in america are exposed to and even then everyone thinks gundam wing is godlike which is wrong considering the series was so cheaply made.


To my knowledge only the orange and white manga books and the translated "How to draw manga" books by graphics sha are the only good manga learning books. ALL the the other ones suck, itll just turn your work into crappy ass americanized wannabe manga. I say that because it is out there, and stuff like that sucks. Not to say americans cannot draw manga, there are a bunch that can, just some people here and companies think they can get away with fast anime styalization without realizing what in fact it is supposed to do or purpose.

[Hiltz]

I have Chris Hart's mecha mania book that I borrowed from my cousin... it sucks. Even though I don't draw nor understand how to draw mechas his book seems to just be full of illustrations that don't do anything to really help the reading artist comprehend "how to draw mechas". He gives a few good tips but saying more than that I think would be giving him too much credit for that particular book in .