Gamer's Manifesto

[Yeef]

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html

I disagree with a lot of the stuff that's said there, but it's a good read nonetheless.

[dfacto]

Only points I disagree with are:

Superimposing shit on the screen. And by "shit" we mean "words." Fatal Frame 2 was one of the most awesomely atmospheric games ever made... until you took a snapshot of the second ghost and the words "CORE SHOT: 396pts!" popped up. Spooooooky!

and

Ammo starvation. I'm looking at you, Resident Evil for the Gamecube. I have a gun. LET ME USE IT. Don't pretend your game is "challenging" because you only give me four bullets to kill eight zombie dogs with.

Ther rest is basically spot on.

[ArtInBlooD]

^ true ^

[TheSorrow]

. The Crate has long been held up as a symbol of lazy game art design.
Meh, I disagree with this.I disagree most of his comments......

EDIT:

Fatal frame 2 was one of the most awesomely atmospehric games ever made..until you took a snapshot of second ghost and the words 'CORE SHOT:396 points!....spoooky

This is funny....I disagree with this as well.

[Lexar]

The crate thing is true. When I make UT2004 levels and I don't know what to do I fill it up with crates. The real life and virtual world crate ratio is waaay off the charts. But then again so are a lot of other things like the good looking people real life virtual world ratio. I'm not complaining about that one though. I don't want to play a game staring at some ugly girl in baggy pants all the time.

[FigureFour]

I don't want to play a game staring at some ugly girl in baggy pants all the time.
All games should star giant breasted topless women who hump their enemies to death.

[Yeef]

Speaking of adult games, where are they? Politicians bemoan the bloodthirsty horror of video games, but really the standards are almost Victorian when compared to R-rated Hollywood fare such as Sin City and Kill Bill and Cinemax's Voyeur Safari IV: Dildo Island. You get a little harsh language and some comic-booky sprays of gore, but that's about it. There is an "AO" (Adults Only) ESRB rating for games, but when is the last time you saw it?

We're not for speeding the moral degradation of the modern world, but imagine a Hollywood where only PG-13 movies could get made. Say goodbye to everything from Shindler's List to The Matrix.I don't think there really need to be more AO games. The mature rating covers pretty much everything but straight out porn; and who needs games for porn? Also, his analogy sucks. AO is more comparable to NC-17; whereas M is the equivalent of an R movie.

And this is years after analysts told developers that women would happily play games if they didn't feel so objectified by them, and several decades past the point where they should have even needed to be told that. Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?All of the girl gamers I know don't really mind women in games that have revealing character designs. Besides, male characters are just as idealized as their female counterparts. It sounds like the analysts are talking about the generall, non-gaming/casual-gaming public and not people who are actually into video games.

we shouldn't ever see a "save point" in a game again.I completely disagree with this. Save points can be used for lots of different purposes. Just a few examples, in the older RE games saving was limited, adding to teh whole 'survival' aspect. In games that are plot heavy having save points can ensure that that the player experiences different 'chapters' in the story in one sitting rather than broken up. I'm personally the type that will just leave a game paused for x hours if, for whatever reason, I can't find a save point in time, but most people I know won't. Also, some games use save points as indicators for safe zones; no enemies spawn there are your health/ammo are refilled.

There is not one single reason in the known universe for even one more game where the save point is ten mother****ing minutes away from the boss, forcing me to fight my way down the same hallway each of the 62 attempts it takes me to beat the guy (I'm looking at you, Metroid Prime). That's more a argument for retries and save point placement than getting rid of save points all together. Also, Metroid Prime is easy. He must suck.

How in the name of Islamic Fonzie did we ever let games get away with "Loading..." screens? The Gamecube doesn't have those, not on the games made by Nintendo.This guy sounds like he doesn't know much about the actual media involved. Gamecube does have loading screens, but because the discs are so small load times are generally faster. Of course, as a tradeoff, they can't hold as much space as normal DVDs. The same goes with cartidges; virtually instant loading, but extremely low space. Besides that, there aren't that many console games that have extremely long load times. Outbreak is the only game I can think of where loading time has made me extremely impatient.

Superimposing shit on the screen. And by "shit" we mean "words." Fatal Frame 2 was one of the most awesomely atmospheric games ever made... until you took a snapshot of the second ghost and the words "CORE SHOT: 396pts!" popped up. Spooooooky! Completely disagree with this one. It's more a matter of graphic design. If the font, menus, etc. are designed well they won't clash with the feel of the game at all and therefore aren't a problem.

"Cinematic" camera angles. No, thank you.Another thing I disagree with. The camera plays a big part in creating the atmosphere of a game. He talks about increasing immersion and I can honestly say that games 'floating' cameras have always seemed more immersive to me than games with over-the-shoulder and first person views.

Ammo starvation. I'm looking at you, Resident Evil for the Gamecube. I have a gun. LET ME USE IT. Don't pretend your game is "challenging" because you only give me four bullets to kill eight zombie dogs with. This is one of the ones I diagree with most. Especially since it contradicts one of his other points. In the section about new genres he says he wants a game where you don't use your gun much, but here he's saying he wants a huge stock of ammo to blast the crap out of everything. My main problem with this (and some of his other examples) is that his complanits seem to be stemming from his lack of skill rather than an inherant flaw in teh game. I know plenty of people who can get through RE with tons of ammo to spare and most people I know agree that games like Metroid Prime are pretty damn easy.

Confusing, mapless floor plans. Did you remember when you were a kid and you got bored on weekends, how you would go to a large building, a hotel or a hospital, then wander around for several hours looking for a certain room? While zombies attacked you? Neither do we. That's because, much to the surprise of FPS game makers everywhere, wandering around lost in hallways isn't fun. I agree that it's not fun to wander around lost, but I don't think every game needs a map. Just better level design so that it's harder to get lost.

Unnecessarily difficult end levels. I've worked for 50 hours to get to this point in the game. Don't make me watch the "Loading..." screen and then the ****ing climactic cutscene 75 times, once for each attempt to beat the last boss. And don't make the method of attack so ****ing obscure and specific that nothing short of a trip to GameFaqs will get me through it. Talk about killing immersion... Again, I disagree with this simply because games these days aren't very hard. If we were still back in teh days of SNES I might agree; games were insanely hard back then; but in this generation there aren't any many games I can think of where I had an especially difficult time figuring out how to finish off a final boss.

What law says I have to start out the game with none of the fun shit promised on the box art? Again, is this not just a cheap way of extending the life of the game? In FPS games built entirely on the anticipation of using gigantic, phallic-symbol weapons, why not start me out with a damned machine gun and 200 rounds of ammo and go up from there?

Racing games pull this, too. Why do I have to spend 40 hours driving a minivan just to get enough money to buy a Honda Civic? Why can't I have access to all of the content right away? What if I don't feel any satisfaction in "unlocking" the game features I already paid real-life money for and just want to ****ing race the Ferrari on the box art! This is probably the worst one. having everything unlocked straight from the begining means that you can't really progess in any meaningful way which just makes the game stale and short-lived. besides, most games have cheats that let you start with everything anyways if that's the way you really want to play.

As a rule, a console is a better game machine than a cheap PC because all it does is play games. So does anyone else get worried when Microsoft and Sony both boast about their machines' ability to rip MP3's and play movies and chat online and do your taxes?

Doesn't every feature that gets added, by necessity, take designer's time and energy away from the features that make for great gaming? Don't most of you reading this already have the ability to play movies and MP3's and chat online without your future Xbox 360? Wouldn't you prefer your game machine devote all of its muscle to gaming and nothing else?

This argument I seen thrown around a lot and I think it's pretty thin. For one, allowing a console to play DVDs and CDs doesn't really take away from anything at all. The games already use the formats anyway, so it's not as if they need to add an extra laser or anything. The ability to rip music and sounds, I think, is actually a great thing, I think, and it has plenty of use for gaming anyways. For example, in THPS for XBox you could rip MP3s and use them to replace the normal in-game music. Being able to use your own music for games like DDR and Um Jammer Lammy would be excellent as well. And in games where you can create your own characters be being able to import sound files you could, for example, give your character your own voice or something. As for chatting online, considering all of the new consoles will have online play I see no reason for them not to have online chatting. Seems pretty pointless to play online with someone if you can't even communicate with them.

We'll try to be calm and avoid the violent hyperbole that spoils so many gaming websites, but are you telling me that Congress can hold hearings about steroids in baseball, but they can't do anything about jumping puzzles in first-person games? YOU CAN'T SEE YOUR MOTHER****ING FEET. IT DOESN'T WORK.Maybe if you lack basic coordination. While I do think certain games don't need jumping puzzles I don't really think it matters whether or not their first person. It's more a matter of the control scheme and other factors.

[dfacto]

I agree that it's not fun to wander around lost, but I don't think every game needs a map. Just better level design so that it's harder to get lost.

If you're in a large building, there should be maps. Every large office building/hospital/school building I've ever been in has had at least 1 map somewhere. People don't want to get lost in real life, and they don't want to get lost in games either.

And jumping puzzles are evil. End of story.

[Hiltz]

One of the main reasons I never bought a Play Station 1 is because of the horrible loading times. At my cousin's house, by the time the games actually showed the start screen I had already turned off the system. :mad:

The guy has made some good points but he seems to have exaggerated on others.

I agree about the lazy crates.

[Yeef]

And jumping puzzles are evil. End of story.That must be why Prince of Persia didn't sell any copies.

[dfacto]

Prince of Persia wasn't an FPS, now was it?

(suppose I should have specified that it was in regard to the manifesto's stance on FPS, and not on every type of game.)

[Aires]

the guy is a retard plain and simple.

Resident Evil ammo starvation being one of them? You can pretty much go through the games killing only the bosses. So you can stock up pretty easy.

Dino Crisis 1 was more ammo starved and you can still have crates filled with ammo by the end of the game.

This guy is just a lousy gamer.

He's complaing about sexy ninjas? What would a girl prefer, Sexy ninja or old hag.

*sidenote: Red ninja just sucked though.

And the bit about rpgs? Thats like the first rule, talk to every freaking npc

This guy is no gamer.

[Izzy/K]

appearently

[IARKK]

I doubt he even knows what he's talkin about...

[dfacto]

And the bit about rpgs? Thats like the first rule, talk to every freaking npc

Actually, that's one of my problems with RPGs. Sometimes you have to quiz everyone in town, and sometimes in a specific order, in order to get the info/quest that you need. I'd rather have a more realistic method of doing this, for example:

Me: "hey, I'll ask that old grandma there where the local _________ is?

*asks and receives detailed directions, because there is no damn reason why the grandma wouldn't know where the local ___________ lives.

Me: "damn, that was easy!"

I find the "talk to everyone and everything that moves" thing to be a fault, even though it is necessary since you never know who has what quests. But I always feel that it kills the realism when I'm doing it. In real life I wouldn't go talk to everyone, and break into people's homes and talk to them, I'd go ask questions nad get answers, and there would be about 100 people milling around that I wouldn't talk to. Most RPG locales are horribly underpopulated, making a talk with every NPC possible, which I can understand, but still...

I also really dislike how nobody cares when you just open the door to their private residence without even knocking and walk into their house. Seriously, where is the hostility? Much more fun if you had to outwit them, or sneak in in the dead of night and slit their throats.

[Hiltz]

The guy is just a frustered gamer that overanalyzes everything. If he is so angry about it then maybe he should stop playing video games or became a video game programmer so he can listen to his own bitching and improve upon it himself.

[Hiltz]

Video games aren't perfect and he shouldn't expect that. There's a ton of crappy games and there's a ton of good games but nothing is actually perfect. Perfect is a superficial word anyway. Although, I guess there can be such a thing as a perfect crappy game. :laugh:

[Aires]

well usually its pretty obvious in rpgs, but i would really like to see an rpg where they actually beat the crap out of ya for breakin into a home

[IARKK]

think about it though, if you had to knock up into each house, it would just make the game longer, and i would start gettin bored of constantly knockin up....

[Yeef]

Prince of Persia wasn't an FPS, now was it?It SO was!

Besides that, Metroid Prime (both of them) were basically first person platformers and handled jumping puzzles fine. It's all bout controls, not perspective.

[dfacto]

Prince of Persia is a third person game, evidence quite handily by the screens.

http://www.x-zine.de/portale/games/images/prince2/bild4.jpg
http://www.dailygame.net/Articles/media/screens/princeofper/princeofper4.jpg
http://www.thegameway.com/screens/gifs/prince01/prince03.gif

[Yeef]

You fail at sarcasm :(

[the shining]

It SO was!

Besides that, Metroid Prime (both of them) were basically first person platformers and handled jumping puzzles fine. It's all bout controls, not perspective.

what are you talking about. of course it wasn't. Halo was. metroid prime was. killzone was. what do these games have in common. They have guns, crosshairs, and you couldn't see their bodies.

Prince Of Persia is a third person Action Adventure game. you can see the player and he has no guns. the fact that it has some jumping puzzles just means that you have to think more.

[Aires]

again
as yeef has mentioned prior "sarcasim"

[Lexar]

I don't know why that dude thinks so, but the jumping puzzles in turok are pretty easy and feel intuitive. You do see your feet though, represented as two foot shaped shadows.

Anyone ever done bunnytrack for UT? I hate it, but it does prove that puzzle jumping is quite possible.

And PoP was sooo an rpg guys. Seriously he has the sword and everything..

[Alucard1515]

He's complaing about sexy ninjas? What would a girl prefer, Sexy ninja or old hag.
So wait, those are the only two choices?

That's always the example people use, and it's retarded. You could have, I don't know, a teenage girl with NORMAL sized breasts? You can be attractive without having back problems. She's a freaking ninja, it's probably very difficult to be stealthy with two huge melons swinging back and forth in front of you constantly.

Also, what's wrong with not always having a very attractive young woman to play as? I don't hear anyone complaining when you have to play as a male character, as I assume you aren't nearly as interested in ****ing him. The argument could be made that they're targetted towards males in two ways: you want to BE the bad ass male character, you want to **** the big-titted woman. However, I believe that's bullshit, because there's actually many examples of characters (even main characters) that are male, and are not attractive, or are downright ugly, and I seriously doubt these are people you would envy. Yet, no one complains.

Now, I don't freak out when I play a game and it's filled with ridiculously proportioned, or inexplicably attractive women, but I do find it funny. It doesn't make a good game bad. I just think that it would be nice if they portrayed a VARIETY of people in games. Hell, they don't even need to make them ugly, they just need to recognize that there are DIFFERENT ways to be attractive. Though, I don't see anything wrong with having unnatractive characters.

[Aires]

I was just going on the extremes for sarcastic effect. I even noted that the game sucked with mediocraty.

Shoot the ninja girl Ayame' (i think) from Tenchu was sexier than the one From red ninja. and she had pants.

And I think games have a variety of female leads which are attractive but dont have tripple d tits.

Regina from Dino Crisis, Meryl from Metal Gear, Olivia from Metal Gear 2. Selphi and Quitis from FF8. Luara from Silent Hill 3.

Ugly leads, I havent seen, ugly characters, I have seen, and some characters i have seen that were handsome but not the typical drop dead gorgeuos blokes. Im looking at the Rpgs. The tekken seires, soul caliber, virtual fighters, bloody roar, guilty gear, King of fighters, street fighters. They have a varitey of attractive characters. ugly characters, and the ones that you want to ****.

So lack of vairety is debatable

[Hiltz]

I like my playable characters to be buff and sensative like my men.

[Alucard1515]

I didn't say that the male characters had a lack of variety. As a matter of fact, I said the exact opposite thing... Raziel (at least the version you play as) is just a walking corpse, not exactly good looking. It's really fairly easy to think of any number of different types of male characters in lead positions, as villains, etc. But when it comes to women, they're always really sexy. Every now and then you'll have the plain girl... who is never really plain. They just throw on less revealing clothes and slap some glasses on her.

And wow, you named a bunch of female characters without gigantic boobs, congratulations. That's only ONE thing that's stupid about female depictions in games. All those characters are still idealistic. There's variety, sure, but more in character design than in the TYPES of women. They're all essentially generic ideals. Some of the ones you mentioned are actually better about that, but those examples are exceptions and not the rule.

And I agree, a lot of male characters are idealized and are made beautiful in much the same way. The difference is that they're balanced out. There's a range between attractive and ugly, it's not one or the other. When it comes to female characters, it's usually either fantasy girl, or ugly, old woman.

[Hiltz]

Very well said.

[Wyrmslayer]

Rachel from Ninja Gaiden.

That is probably the best example of borderline whore I can think of.

My brother laughed when she got shot out of that monster covered in saliva...

But Im agreeing with this, too many of these women are overly busted and or exagerated.

But then again, you dont see your average woman going around being a A) Ninja B) Mortal Kombatant C) Spy D) Etc.

I do not agree with that girl in the red dress thing, I think shes an SNK fighter, you know who she is, I cant remember her name though.

ENORMOUS Breasts would slow you down so much when your fighting for your life its not even funny.

[Bloodstar]

Mai.

[Lexar]

Selphy is NOT cool and definately not sexy.

[Hiltz]

Ivy and Taki from Soul Calibur would beg to differ. :)

Sometimes it seems like they are willing to test the boundaries of what is completely skanky what what can possibly still be called decency. Sex appeal sells and it doesn't look like it will be stopping any time soon.

For as long as horny gamers exist in the world by God there will be attractive women characters with large breasts in video games. For every boy who is too young to own a Playboy magazine there will be attractive women characters with large breasts in video games. Thank you DOA Extreme volleyball and Rumble Roses. "Even if you lose, you win".

[dfacto]

I dunno, I don't get off (haha) on seeing big breasted women in fighting games. I never play those games for the characters, I play them to crush others into the ground and gloat about my superiority. In fact, I get pissed that some tiny woman with DD breasts managed to beat my towering death golem. I'd like some more connection between ability and appearance.

Big breasted women should be put into RPG/FPS games, where you actually look at them as a character, and not as a Kung Fu death machine.

[Hiltz]

I take large breasted women characters about as seriously as I take Major Motoko Kusanagi in her very revealing outfit.

Boobs: More than a handful is wasteful.

[Alucard1515]

But then again, you dont see your average woman going around being a A) Ninja B) Mortal Kombatant C) Spy D) Etc.
I don't see ANY woman, or any other person, doing any of those things. But if one were to do any of those things, they should be believable in that role.

[Aires]

Selphy is NOT cool and definately not sexy.

She was a little hot in the annoying the hell out of you way.

I was just listing a few girls that could be considered the girls next door.

Sex appeal being the prime factor to buy a game doesnt exacty improve the odds of it being a top seller. Im not going to list the games that dealt heavily with sex appeal, because you guys probably know that they were boring at best, and sucked at their very worst.

Unfortunately I have not played many games recently, so If sexy games that are good are the norm, then correct me.


And the main thing "I" was going for is that there is a ton of variety in good games. Simple. Square demonstrated this with the assorted casts of the Final Fantasy series, Chrono Cross, Parasite Eve 1 and 2.

Capcom had a varied cast of fighters, Snk had an extremely varied cast.

The Suikoden casts were very varied and they werent all kids or big breasted vixens. Bandai and Dot Hack?

There is variety and the guy is to "narrow sighted" to see that

Thats my point, I tried to reiterate it as best as i could

[Wyrmslayer]

Id just like to add, about the boob jiggaling.

Possibly, given all the female characters and this animation, it may be a better idea to design, make, and animate another character instead of having these animations

[Alucard1515]

And the main thing "I" was going for is that there is a ton of variety in good games. Simple. Square demonstrated this with the assorted casts of the Final Fantasy series, Chrono Cross, Parasite Eve 1 and 2.

Capcom had a varied cast of fighters, Snk had an extremely varied cast.

The Suikoden casts were very varied and they werent all kids or big breasted vixens. Bandai and Dot Hack?

There is variety and the guy is to "narrow sighted" to see that

Thats my point, I tried to reiterate it as best as i could
You are talking about CHARACTER DESIGN. I already said that wasn't what I was talking about. Fighting games are typically the worst ones about making all the women super sexy, and in these games it makes the least amount of sense.

[Negafen]

I like my girls to look really beaten up.

It definitely doesn't make sense for fighting girls to look the way they do.


...Man, you guys take yourselves too seriously.

[Hiltz]

What doesn't make sense for fighting girls to look the way they do? Generally speaking, female video game characters are better liked if they look attractive rather than ugly. Even non-human female characters usually encourage sex appeal like the character Sheeva from Mortal Kombat. She's got a sexy physique despite her non-human characteristics but even more sexy is her revealing outfit or lack of what she is wearing.

Although, when it comes to what they wear that can be a different story. A gal wearing a highly revealing outfit leaves less to the imagination. Such as slapping a thong on a female fighter with a bra that appears to be two sizes too small. It seems as if the less clothing a female wears determines how sexy she can be. With that said, it's a bad reputation for women in general and even female characters featured in video games.

Female characters can still be sexy even if they have more clothing on. However, I doubt the majority of gamers that do like attractive females wearing revealing outfits won't complain and I'm not complaining either but I'm just stating the facts.

When it comes to male video game characters I think it is safe to say that gamers like to see them be somewhat muscular and look cool in the way their hairstyles and clothing looks like. An example would probably be a character like Dante from Devil May cry. Male characters typically have a wider range of what gamers think is cool compared to the female characters but they are both common stereotypes. All males should look cool (even if they do look ugly) and all women should look sexy in one way or another.

[Alucard1515]

...Man, you guys take yourselves too seriously.
Just becuase someone doesn't make a joke out of everything posted doesn't mean they take themselves too seriously. It's not like when I sit down to play a game and an attractive, big-breasted woman is in it I freak out and go on a rant about it. If I did, there woudln't be too many games that I could play.

What doesn't make sense for fighting girls to look the way they do? Generally speaking, female video game characters are better liked if they look attractive rather than ugly.
... I'm not talking about marketability. Of course the sexy girls are going to sell the games more (at least to that audience they're intended for), but I mean it makes no LOGICAL sense. It doesn't make sense for a fighter to be a delicate little flower that runs around in lingerie and heels. I like Ivy, she's one of my favorite Soul Calibur characters, but it MAKES NO SENSE. I don't mind if there are some characters like that, but when all or most of the female characters in a game are that way, it's just ridiculous.

[velcro animal]

And PoP was sooo an rpg guys. Seriously he has the sword and everything..
(slaps lexar) having a sword doesn't make a game an rpg.

if you want to try a game with good variation in character try Fable. It's not perfect but your character ages, gets scars, can gain weight, can go from good to evil, and if you break into someones house or take something in a house without permission the police chase you.

[Wyrmslayer]

(slaps lexar) having a sword doesn't make a game an rpg.

if you want to try a game with good variation in character try Fable. It's not perfect but your character ages, gets scars, can gain weight, can go from good to evil, and if you break into someones house or take something in a house without permission the police chase you.

Too bad there is only 1 "Hard" part in the entire game, and thats the Arena, its not even the "Hard" kind of hard, its the Annoying kind of hard, very easy game, the system of evil and good is ok, but pretty much the changes are minute, I almost got a cool scar going down my eye, but then I remembered that the helmet looked cooler then my face.

All you need to do to go from Bad to good is donate a shitload of money to the place, and you go from a Heretic Devil Worshiper, to a God among man.

[Aires]

All you need to do to go from Bad to good is donate a shitload of money to the place, and you go from a Heretic Devil Worshiper, to a God among man.

And the game teaches real moral ethics of this world and the justice system.

[Hiltz]

Lol, very well put Aires.

[Alucard1515]

You thought the Arena was hard?

[Krieock]

The deal with scantly claid video game babes is simple:
Sex sells
If the multi billion dollar porn industry doesn't tell you this; you're a retard.
But as always: Too much of a good thing usually turns into a bad thing:
Attractive characters (male and female) make video games more appeal to 99% of the population. It's not a matter of being shallow or anything, it's because if you find the person(s) you're dealing with the gaming world appealing to look at(in your opinion), then the visual aspect of the game has increased: to you.

Now... The thong-wearing stiff-nippled vixens in, mostly, fighting games... is a little much (imo). I've played DOA games (don't own any)... and I think their outfits, not only being super unrealist(which doesn't matter much in the game world), make them less appealing. I prefer attractive characters+attractive clothing - which has nothing to do with how much flesh is showing. What makes the clothes compliment the character is how much time/though was put into them. For example: Yuna from FFX, Rinoa from FFVIII... Those are well thought out characters and well thought out unifrom designs. Nothing too trashy, and not just a fistful of pixels representing a thong for 1/2 their outfit >.<
Same goes for male chars.

That's just my thoughts on it.

[Alucard1515]

Attractive characters (male and female) make video games more appeal to 99% of the population. It's not a matter of being shallow or anything, it's because if you find the person(s) you're dealing with the gaming world appealing to look at(in your opinion), then the visual aspect of the game has increased: to you.
That's what being shallow is. Instead of focusing on the content of the game, they're just making it LOOK good.

[Krieock]

Games are a mixture of many things: Gameplay(most impotant), Storyline(if it's an rpg or adverture game - 1st/2nd important), Visual apsects(though this is uneed for a good game - with today's technology, it's expected), and Sound(not least important, just beneath the previous mentions)
And their playability and stuff like that mixed in... but the point is:
Having/expecting appealing visuals in a game isn't being shallow: it's expected as part of the whole.
I never said graphics were the most important thing, nor that half-assing the rest of the aspects of the game is acceptable - it's not.
Visuals are only a small part of the entire thing, and you should expect the most from all of them.

[Alucard1515]

It may be expected, but if you are expecting ONLY beautiful women or just all attractive characters in general, THEN THAT IS BEING SHALLOW.

A game can look graphically amazing and not have ridiculous looking characters.

And you seem to be addressing me like I'm suggesting they make all the female characters ugly. I just think they should make them more realistic, and less like strippers.

[Lexar]

Fable isn't that revolutionary. This is going to sound annoying since I have to bring it up all the time, but in Ogre battle for the snes, the actual style you play in, not choices you make in conversations or actions you do, but how you manouvre your characters and which units you chose to do which roles determines your reputation, or how good and how bad you are. For example if you made all kinds of uber powerfull units and attacked weaker ones pretty much all the time, or if you ganged up on units the people would think of you as just as evil a dictator as the boss in the game, if you had to fight higher level units throughout the game, you'd be beating the odds or if you tried to liberate as much cities and churches as you could, people would eventually give you better prices in towns and certain units and characters in the story wouldn't or would join you accordingly. For example you could even have bandits and pirates making business deals with you if you were evil enough. Funny enough the 'real' ending wasn't the good one, but a neutral one with a hint of evil. There must have been like 30 different endings in that game. And all that in 1993. That is real interactivity and action that determines outcome without being obvious and scripted like Fable. Yeah it doesn't look as good, since it uses mode 7 graphics chip support at best, but other than that it's a system and idea I have yet to see in today's games. That's why I'm such a fan of the series.

(slaps lexar) having a sword doesn't make a game an rpg.

Having internet access doesn't make a person understanding sarcasm either.

[Alucard1515]

No one was saying that Fable did anything like that...

It sounds like a good game, but you don't have to rant about Ogre Battle all the time.

[Lexar]

No but fable isn't as open ended and evolving as they say it is. I merely used OB to illustrate that it CAN be done in a game to have your style and not the results influence the story.