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-   -   controversy (http://www.polykarbonbbs.com/showthread.php?t=32475)

bell 12-24-2015 08:26 AM

there used to be controversy a lot on this forum when it was active, ergo cunts were here for the controversy.

so anyroad,

i think the confederate flag is good.

i think gun control is good.

i think Obama is right about healthcare.

i think we shouldn't bomb Syria.

i think Anthrax are better than Metallica.

and anything else that might generate some ******* activity in this ******* place.

djizomdjinn 12-24-2015 01:55 PM

- The Confederate flag that most people fly isn't even the flag of the Confederacy, it's the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. And, IMO, people have less reason to fly that than they do the Union Jack (thirteen colonies of the BRITISH EMPIRE), yet no one does it (in the US).

- Yep.
- Yep.
- I think everyone's bombing Syria now. It's this weird sort of war kind of like a sports match, except the fans on either side are shooting the players on the opposite team.
- Don't listen to most mainstream music. It's not some hipster impulse, I just mainly listen to anime OSTs and game soundtracks (my musical tastes are crap).
- We need fresh blood for that.

bell 12-27-2015 04:39 AM

here's my living room right now:

The reason I've got the Rebel flag (let's call it a rebel flag for now, as you're right, that one was never officially adopted as the CSA flag) up is that I'm dismayed at the fascism of anyone trying to stop anyone else flying a certain flag. The civil war was not fought over slavery, it was a colonial war to secure the south's resources. Slavery wasn't banned outright in the USA until eight months after the south surrendered, and Abraham Lincoln actually stated in his inaugural address that he wasn't going to do anything about slavery, but rather he was going to pursue protectionism, and that's why South Carolina and the rest seceded.

The rebel flag itself has nothing to do with slavery. It's true that some racists have flown it but that doesn't mean everyone who flies one is racist. The USA flag has been used just as often by racist groups, and the USA supported slavery for far longer than the CSA existed.

It does suit the establishment, however, to maintain the false idea that the southern states are full of racists, and anyone who flies a flag associated with the CSA is a racist. If you start banning flags because they represent something to some people who associate the flag with certain groups or actions, then there a lot of countries who're going to need new flags.

On Syria, the main issue is that ISIS want us to bomb them. They consider every western non-Muslin a 'crusader', harking back to the Vatican-backed invasions of the middle east by European powers in the middle ages. All the west and Russia are doing is providing ISIS fighters with the martyrdom they crave, and the leadership with the propaganda that need for their recruitment campaigns. The best course of action is just to provide support to the Saudi-led coalition in order to let the Middle-East sort its own problems and not exacerbate them.

I reckon new members are likely put off by the lack of activity. why should anyone join a dead forum?

Jeanox 12-27-2015 08:48 AM

My controversy (maybe):

- I'm an atheist who disdains the new atheist movement due to how socially regressive it is.
- I think we should follow other countries with health care & maternity/paternity leave.
- Polyamory should be a thing legally recognized (multiple consenting adults marrying each other; distinct from polygamy because it makes no gender distinctions and isn't tied to bs religious cults).
- Assisted suicide should also be available for people who request it (yes, put things in place to make sure the person is of sound mind and all that).
- Abortion & birth control are great because it allows women to be full agents over their bodies/futures.
- **** texas. People there are just obnoxious. I'd love to let them secede just to watch them flounder.
- Libertarians routinely make me facepalm with quite a bit of circular reasoning, lack of evidence for their claims, and simply not accounting for people who aren't in their approximate life circumstance.

muzz 12-28-2015 12:30 AM

Honestly nobody here has said anything truly controversial so lets go.
  • The issue of mostly male economic migrants to europe is causing massive problems in many european countries due to men that grew up in socially regressive countries who don't value women causing a huge number of rapes and sexual abuse, and this issue is being handwaved by people scared of being labeled racist. This needs to be dealt with.
  • Women are not victims of men in modern western society. Both sexes have problems and it's not a one way street.
  • Male suicide/depression and workplace deaths are huge issues that almost nobody is taking seriously, while minor feelsy issues like fat shaming and trigger warnings fill up the media on a daily basis.
  • Sensitivity is not a virtue. At all. Being offended doesn't give you any right to anything.
  • Having large countries succeed to smaller independent nations would make for a much better world where the governments can meet the peoples needs much better.
  • The reason why africa is ****** is that we sent across charity, not a manufacturing outsourcing industry.

  • "- I'm an atheist who disdains the new atheist movement due to how socially regressive it is."

    What new atheist movement? Militant atheists or atheism plus. Because **** atheism plus.

  • "- Libertarians routinely make me facepalm with quite a bit of circular reasoning, lack of evidence for their claims, and simply not accounting for people who aren't in their approximate life circumstance."

    What Libertarian views, you are going to have to clarify as this is a very wide political landscape. Economicly liberal? Socially liberal? Progressives?
  • "The best course of action is just to provide support to the Saudi-led coalition in order to let the Middle-East sort its own problems and not exacerbate them."

    Wat.... The coalition lead by the home of Wahhabism which beheads atheists, and commits horrible crimes against humanity on a daily basis. What a terrible ******* idea.

muzz 12-28-2015 04:34 PM

I posted yesterday. You guys suck at this.

Jeanox 12-28-2015 07:41 PM

I went to work today, lol. Kk, here's my response:

"What new atheist movement? Militant atheists or atheism plus. Because **** atheism plus. "

When i said New Atheists, I meant atheist circles that congregate largely on youtube, twitter, and reddit. So, a pretty casual read on the atheist scene and one that is very informed by the kinds of users on those platforms than atheist philosophies in isolation. My beef with them is their arguments are too limited, often incredibly eurocentric, sexist, and reproduce the same behavior that defines christianity (which I'm more than sick of). They think themselves enlightened, the rest of the world is blind, their experiences largely define what it means to be human or good, they're quick to evangelize, and they pay public devotion to their charismatic atheist celebrities of choice. I want more questioning, of leaders like Dawkins or Hitchens included. I feel the atheists I've seen in these online spaces only go so far than stop. They fail to connect with other lenses of inspection, likely because those lenses highlight their own complicity in oppressive systems.

What interests me with atheism is that I see it as incomplete without questioning economic and social systems of privilege. It's a massive ven diagram that gets super messy. Dive deep and it's almost impossible to talk about any one of those subjects without including the other. It makes a big puzzle that I love to dive into. Atheist lens, feminist lens, queer lens, social class lens, all of them end up intersecting. I don't know what branch of atheist thought that would be included in, honestly, but that's where I am.

"What Libertarian views, you are going to have to clarify as this is a very wide political landscape."
This is a subject I've been introduced to by way of conversation with people IRL mostly, so they did not state their exact camp, as it were. A few examples of facepalm inducing claims below:
  • The market is naturally stable and self regulatory. Repeated inquiries for evidence (countries that have partially attempted the de-regulation they described), multiple individuals, no examples given. If you happen to have some, throw them my way, but I won't believe just because it sounds nice.
  • Without government mandate, all would receive healthcare access by the good will and awareness of others. What about people with rare conditions? What charities would exist for conditions the population is already ignorant of? Since you're placing a free-market price on peoples' lives, how is it possible to shop around and support the better institution with your $$$ if you're mid-stroke? How can such charities or businesses exist without further stratifying social classes? Again, if you feel you have good answers to this, throw them my way (link me to articles, i'll read them).

Adding to controversy:
Mass incarceration of people of color (specifically men of color) is an extension of racism that never actually went away. It's slavery by another name.

Feminism has many camps, but if you're not intersectional (exploring the intersection of what it is to be different kinds of women), you're likely promoting agendas that reflect and uplift those of your background. You end up perpetuating the same bullshit you critique onto other people while in a state of denial. This is why white feminists are often so hypocritical, self serving, and blind to the unique issues of literally every other kind of person. Patriarchy implicates everyone to some extent, if you aren't honest about how your privileges effect others, you won't act counter to the toxic system you supposedly criticize.

Gender-segregated bathrooms are a horrible idea. They fail to account for people whose gender isn't what was assigned to them at birth, they fail to reflect gender as a spectrum rather than a binary (gender studies 101 concept) and people who were born physically intersex. I've used multistall all-gender bathrooms. The sky does not fall. The world doesn't end. People shit/piss and move on, the difference is everyone is explicitly welcome in the space, which gives violent shitheads less protection.

Sexism in relation to assault/abuse is bullshit. Yes, violence against women is horrible, but I'm talking about the other side of the coin here. Women can be physical abusers. I know, I had one for 20 years. No one takes me seriously. Men can be victims of sexual violence. I know, i have 2 brothers who have suffered this. They are alone/shamed socially. It's super bullshit and a direct result of gendered myths we believe in our culture (men are strong and unfeeling, women are docile and incapable of real violence). **** all that bullshit.

Forget speculation, if you want to meet experts on gender in our culture, talk to trans people. They've actually experienced both sides and all shades in between. Truth is, most of us have a super narrow capacity to imagine this subject. (note, that's in OUR culture. Other cultures already have 2+ gender categories and vastly varied roles, so go look up anthropology junk).

There, done for tonight. Sleepy sleepy. :)

Grieverjoe 12-28-2015 08:19 PM


Originally Posted by muzz (Post 427150)
I posted yesterday. You guys suck at this.

My wife got me a cool shirt for Christmas.



muzz 12-29-2015 03:24 AM

On Economics.

You basically hate people that follow Hayekian economics, as opposed to Keynesian economics. I'd suggest not using the blanked term libertarians, as that encompasses many ideas that you would rather defend such as freedom of speech regardless of ideas.

let this hilarious rap battle bring you up to speed.


On Atheism.

Not sure why you said new atheism if you are going to lump in Dawkins and Hitchens, Both men i am a massive fan of. So if you want to debate any of their ideas, I'm up for that fight. But i would imagine the main

Also if you are taking the amazing atheist as an example, he is pretty much not taken serious by anyone.

I would like to see you back up this claim though " reproduce the same behavior that defines christianity"
That just comes off as ridiculous to me.

On Gender Segregated bathrooms:

gender serves a very important social utility, regardless of if you like it or not, and that it to provide families for growing the next generation.

On top of that there is different needs that bathrooms need to provide to people. Men are able to use urinals, which speed up our usage of the bathroom a ton, as you can fit more in there. These are out in the open, and as such opens a whole can of worms having them in a mixed gender bathroom.

You are essentially trying to change a societal norm for the majority for a tiny tiny minority so that there feels don't get hurt. In Australia though almost every place has a single disabled genderless bathroom, Doesn't this solve that problem? (unless you somehow want to imply that having the bathroom be labled disabled is abelist)

But the problem with these sort of arguments is that they try and dictate to the majority of populations that they should not behave the way they want to, even if it isn't harming anyone for the sake of a minority, and it is attacking people for who they are. Men should be allowed to be manly and women should be allowed to be feminine, but people should be allowed to stray from it if they are not comfortable with it. Widen the rainbow, don't turn gender into a grey homogeneous soup. And besides, Most transgender people want to transition to the other side, not opt out of the game whatsoever. You are probably looking at a fraction of a fraction of a small group of people who want to choose to be a Xir.

I'm glad that you can recognize that sexual abuse and domestic abuse against men is a real thing. :).

On privilege.

In general i think the whole privilege thing is silly. Yes people get a better start in life or are looked in different ways in society, but to act like people are not able to understand an issue, or have a valid opinion because of who they are is rubbish. I think yes understanding that there is privilege, (Economic privledge being the biggest), but to start to dictate quotas, or deciding who can or cannot speak is silly, dangerous and is going against many ideas that most European nations are founded. (free speech being the biggest).

Just a few facts.

The gap between blacks and whites in american prisons is smaller than the gap between men and women in prisons.

During the 15th and 19th centuries africans enslaved from 1-4 million europeans. This of course is a fraction of the ~12 million africans that were enslaved in america, but to act as if white people are the cause of all evil is silly. Hell to be white in America isn't even the most successful demographic, asians are doing better in pretty much every way you can measure, from education, to poverty rates, to median income.

But hey this conversation is probably going to lead to some of my truly controversial ideas.

bell 12-29-2015 06:59 AM


Originally Posted by muzz (Post 427147)
Wat.... The coalition lead by the home of Wahhabism which beheads atheists, and commits horrible crimes against humanity on a daily basis. What a terrible ******* idea.

what's so terrible about it? I'm not condoning any human rights abuses, and not saying the west should support them in any human rights abuses, but rather that we should support the coalition in a war against ISIS under the terms of the Geneva convention.

and you know what else? giving women the vote was irresponsible.

Anyte 01-01-2016 09:29 AM

You missed me ... you really really missed me!

Controversy? We're swimming in it, we just keep our eyes closed so we don't feel the sting. Everything on the face of the stinkin' earth is controversial. Why? Because we are a mass of self-indulged, self-entitled ... beings. There is no "we" in the world, just a whole lot of "me!" We care more about what we want and like as individuals than we do about maintaining family and community.

You know what annoys me? Well ... besides everything? Certain protesting as it relates to events in Minneapolis MN. Protesting is needed - things definitely need to change and decades ago. What I'm against is the victimization of innocent people for the purpose of making a statement. How does harassing and victimizing others help anyone's cause? It just creates hostility and builds barriers rather than bridges. There are protesters here holding the city hostage (figuratively) to their show of outrage. They don't care if someone is having a medical crisis. They don't care of others need for the police. They don't care if someone is late for work or an important appointment. They don't care about hurting innocent people. What about the elected officials? Why not mess up their day? What about the big corporations that are known to pay low wages and unfair wages? Why not cause them trouble? I could be with you if you took your outrage and demonstrated in appropriate places but ... noo ... it would seem the message is to hurt others until they get what they want. Pointless, useless, and you are hurting the wrong people. Make the right people suffer, bring the media to the right people, or better yet, camp out at the TV stations and make them hear you. Mess up their day and make them give you a little air-time.

We will never grow up and care about something more than ourselves. The earth doesn't matter. Our families don't matter. Our neighbors don't matter. Being polite and considerate don't matter. Keeping the peace doesn't matter.

Self matters and self wants for itself and it wants lots of amusement, entertainment, material goods, accolades ... etc.

Thank you for missing me, I'll now return from whence I came which is looking and not touching because I can't be bothered to spend so much of my valuable life-time on the internet. I've got practical matters to tend to.

Someone throw on that old Prince CD .... oh, you're probably all too young for that one. New Years hugs and well wishes for ALL of you.

I'm actually really nice and cool and interesting ... just not on the internet ... cause it's messed up and doesn't convey a message they way it's sent.

pigeonkill 01-04-2016 11:19 PM


Originally Posted by Jeanox (Post 427151)
I want more questioning, of leaders like Dawkins or Hitchens included. I feel the atheists I've seen in these online spaces only go so far than stop.

Recently Dawkins took flack for criticizing ahmed-mohamed.


He also gets bullied.

I heard Feminist movement kind hi-jacked the atheist movement as much as third wave feminist took over the game/comic industry.


I think a lot movements or religions have pros/cons, everybody can learn from each other...but some take it to more extremes...

mofo09 01-06-2016 07:13 PM

9/11 was an inside job

afroXcore 01-06-2016 09:33 PM

7-11 was a part time job.

unstable_monki 02-02-2016 05:59 AM

I heard there was some controversy happening?

unstable monki 02-03-2016 04:43 AM

I heard there was some controversy happening?

bell 02-05-2016 05:19 AM



Originally Posted by bell (Post 427130)
cunts were here for the controversy.


unstable monki 02-05-2016 05:45 AM


Edit: Also, I would have to disagree with "the confederate flag is good." While I would never argue for banning anyone from flying it, perception matters. Even if you argue that the symbol has been high-jacked from its original purpose, you are already conceding that the symbol has been high-jacked and the public perception of the symbol, and those that fly it, is one of racism.

You're aware of the public perception and still embrace the symbol, so it's completely reasonable for a stranger to assume that you embrace the associated beliefs.

bell 02-06-2016 06:57 AM

i've got the Bonnie Blue Flag up as well now.

Lamb 02-07-2016 12:07 AM

I just fly a used condom.

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